Your Thoughts on Black Friday Season So Far…

[LinkedMusicians]

We’re two months into insane Black Friday promotions and I think the market has been so saturated with deep discounting super sales that fatigue is setting in and promotions that would have normally gotten our attention have little impact because we’re constantly being bombarded left and right. Granted, I’m more aware of it since I’ve been making this Deals Forum have the kind of depth only seen at the best deals subreddit or Facebook Group (that is pretty much what I’m using as a point of comparison, as we’re far beyond what the big composer and gear forums are posting — and far, far beyond what Cakewalk Forum posts; how do I know? I monitor all of it — except for the Facebook Group, which I need to view manually — in the same interface updated every few minutes).

Personally, I’m only on the lookout for a few specific plugins, addons, and sample libraries and will only pick up either freebies or below $15 deals.

What do you think?

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[lamia6]

Black Friday sales vs budget:

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[LinkedMusicians]

Me after one more week of deals I can’t resist:

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[Kirean]

It’s been somewhat easy thus far. Aside from some smaller plugins, I don’t think there’s been any real deep discounts (maybe EastWest and Musio are the only ones that have shown how it’s done?)

A lot of companies seem to run the same discounts as last year making fomo really easy to deal with. Also if your BF discount isn’t really different than your spring/summer deal, then who really cares? Easy skip.

Some developers also have really crappy crossgrade/upgrade discounts (if any) or make you run through a lot of hoops. I’m looking at you Sonuscore.

I suppose I’m currently debating between Ancient bundle from Eastwest (needs quite a bit of space though and I’m short on extra) and the Arturia upgrade. Maybe it’s neither.

We’ll see what Spitfire offers in bundles this year. The Ton has been often fine, but most likely the good stuff will be in the more expensive bundles which eliminates the impulse buying bug. After all, several hundred dollars is still several hundred dollars (and again, their offerings require HD space).

• This reply was modified 2 days, 12 hours ago by Kirean.

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[LinkedMusicians]

On Kirean said

It’s been somewhat easy thus far. Aside from some smaller plugins, I don’t think there’s been any real deep discounts (maybe EastWest and Musio are the only ones that have shown how it’s done?)

Because I’ve been immersed in deal posting this year, I have to respond to that one! There are literally dozens of developers doing deep discounts right now (technically, anything 40% or more is considered deep discounts, but we’re seeing A LOT of developers discounting far over 50%). UAD, IK, SSL, UAD, UJAM, United Plugins, Baby Audio, Klevgrand, Wave Alchemy, Sonnox, Musio, 8Dio, Krotos, Sonible, Black Rooster, Reveal Sound, Newfangled Audio, UVI, Native Instruments, Ink Audio, Sound Toys, Three-Body Technology, Softube… are just some of the developers from the top of my head that I’ve posted deals, and a bunch of these deals have been more than 70% off, with a number of them 90% or more off. It’s far more discounting then we saw in 2024, not even remotely close.

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[pseudopop]

So far the offers have been pretty “meh”. Nowadays, a good offer for me is “the lowest price ever for something that I’m interested in”. There have been some of those, but not many. I’m up to my ears in effect plugins, so at the moment I’m mainly looking for instruments.

Here’s how it’s looking at the moment:

• Musio: Already have it
• UJAM: I have them all except for one Beatmaker. Will wait until it’s $5.
• IK: I have Total Studio 5 MAX, will wait for TS 6 or 7.
• UAD: I have all I need. I think. Might consider.
• SSL: Ditto.
• Sonnox: Just interested in Oxford Inflator, but it has been much cheaper before.
• Softube: I slept on the limiter, not really interested in anything else ATM.
• Krotos: No thanks.
• Sonible: I think I have all of their smart: and true: plugins. Not that interested in their pure: or learn: lineup. Will wait for a good discount on prime:vocal.
• Black Rooster: Not interested.
• Reveal Sound: Interested in Spire but not cheap enough.
• Eventide/Newfangled Audio: I have all I’m interested in, except for Temperance. Will wait for a better price.
• Soundtoys: Not that interested and no actual discounts as far as I can tell.
• Three-Body Technology: Not really interested and the discounts are not deep enough anyway.

I did buy Baby Audio Taip and I’m looking into Wave Alchemy and Ink Audio, they seem interesting. Klevgrand will get some of my money, as will probably 8Dio and United Plugins. Arturia, GForce and UVI are on the “maybe, perhaps” list. Still on the fence about Cube.

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[mustakatu]

Guys, basically what you are saying is “I’m not interested because I have 90% of it”. Don’t get me wrong, I’m on the same boat, but for people who just enter the deals zoo, these prices are better than ever. You just already bought it (and yes, for higher prices).

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[pseudopop]

On mustakatu said

Guys, basically what you are saying is “I’m not interested because I have 90% of it”. Don’t get me wrong, I’m on the same boat, but for people who just enter the deals zoo, these prices are better then ever. You just already bought it (and yes, for higher prices).

Eh… For some products it’s true that I paid more when I bought them, but I’ve paid a lot less for others than what the current offers are. I paid something like $4 for many of the Eventide plugins and 40 euros for the Elevate Mastering Bundle. I’m not sure, but I think some developers have also raised their prices.

(Sonible’s smart:bundle for ~$134 is a damn good deal, though.)

But yes, my biggest problem is that I already have too much stuff and GAS is losing its hold on me. Also, I’m reluctant to put much money into things like sampled string libraries, because I have a suspicion that the way AI is advancing, very good modeled and moderately priced instruments might be on the horizon.

You’re absolutely right that this is a good time to start a music hobby, as long as you can sort the wheat from the chaff.

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[jude77]

I have to say I wasn’t prepared for a Black Friday SEASON.  I was sort of thinking the week of T’giving the deals would start and then we’d see the dénouement on Cyber Monday.    I’ve found myself a bit overwhelmed by it all.  A lot of the heavy hitters have already started their sales and we aren’t even at the middle of November!  What’s to come in the next two weeks?  To paraphrase The Clash “Should I buy or should I wait?  If I buy there will be trouble, and if I wait it will be double.”

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[LinkedMusicians]

I think because I’ve immersed myself in posting these deals to the point of putting LinkedMusicians in the same league of deal quantity –but better quality — close to what you find in the big subreddit and Facebook plugin and sample library deal groups, I’ve been more burned out by the deals starting early (Sept.) than anyone else here. IRL, friends will say to me, “Your expertise is in marketing, so aren’t you immune to the promotional tactics that companies use?” (Okay, I’m correcting most people improperly using the term marketing when they’re referring to promotion). And the answer is no. When it’s for things that tap into my love and passion for music, it’s not like it’s not completely logical. It’s like buying stuff for your kids — there’s part of your heart involved in the purchase decision. It’s emotional. Yes, I can analyze what these developers and retailers are doing — and there’s a ton of blatant manipulation to it that I’m acutely aware of, but when it’s something that appeals to you so much, that emotion is very compelling.

But there is a deal fatigue that sets in when we’re being bombarded with incredibly deep discounts. Where stuff that would have seemed unbelievable a few years ago — like picking up 10 premium Universal Audio plugins for less than 10 bucks each or over 100 pro quality sample libraries with a free player (Musio) for under $120. But when you keep seeing them day after day, the outrageous deep discounting becomes normalized, no longer able to command our attention as it once did. And suddenly, an inexpensive purchase of say $30 or less that would have been in the realm of an impulse decision only a few years ago, now has a longer decision cycle.

One thing is certain, once the market has this kind of major disruption in pricing, it can’t easily return to the old pricing structures. UAD and Waves can’t simply go back to charging $200 for a plugin. The market’s expectations have changed and now it’s going to be even harder to get people to move than when we first saw prices come down.

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[dsteinschneider]

I’m really busy lately, it would be great if only the BF sales I’m interested in are posted. I like amp sims, piano, organ and synth VST’s, and mixing FX. Thanks for your attention in this matter 🙂

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[dsteinschneider]

My typing fingers are sore from just thinking about keeping up with the BF sales.

• This reply was modified 1 day, 20 hours ago by dsteinschneider.
• This reply was modified 1 day, 20 hours ago by dsteinschneider.

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[peter]

On dsteinschneider said

I’m really busy lately, it would be great if only the BF sales I’m interested in are posted. I like amp sims, piano, organ and synth VST’s, and mixing FX. Thanks for your attention in this matter 🙂

Dead serious, but I want to explore using AI to let people be able to follow what they’re looking for more easily in the future, and combine that with the opinions of real users. Because people who own the big forums are motivated by profit at every turn, they don’t really care about making their sites super useful in ways that don’t bring in immediate revenue. They’re focused on optimizing advertising and developer revenue or their own sales revenue. Imagine if, we added a shopping comparison engine and an AI tool that let you easily track the specific category and products you’r interested in watching for sales or new product entries coming into the market? That is the stuff I’ve been looking into that could be part of the site in 2026.

LinkedMusicians Founder. Your friend who keeps the beat.

Check out my music. 

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[Kirean]

On LinkedMusicians said

Because I’ve been immersed in deal posting this year, I have to respond to that one! There are literally dozens of developers doing deep discounts right now (technically, anything 40% or more is considered deep discounts, but we’re seeing A LOT of developers discounting far over 50%). UAD, IK, SSL, UAD, UJAM, United Plugins, Baby Audio, Klevgrand, Wave Alchemy, Sonnox, Musio, 8Dio, Krotos, Sonible, Black Rooster, Reveal Sound, Newfangled Audio, UVI, Native Instruments, Ink Audio, Sound Toys, Three-Body Technology, Softube… are just some of the developers from the top of my head that I’ve posted deals, and a bunch of these deals have been more than 70% off, with a number of them 90% or more off. It’s far more discounting then we saw in 2024, not even remotely close.

It’s a good time for those starting out for sure. Musio for so low is simply a “just do it” deal.

However, a lot of the stuff has been lower.

For some of the mentioned: Sonible smart:bundle was ~99 few years back (granted, I believe there might be one more plugin in that package now), Sonnox has been cheaper, Eventide has been cheaper, NI has had better offers (especially their glitch deals were awesome. Wish I’d had more money back then), Ink Audio has been lower (Nashville Toolkit now $50, has been $35) etc etc.

For me, I’d call a deep discount (as in “Alright. Let’s check it out.”) something that starts with 75% or more. 50% is basically the minimum to care about. Generally though, if it’s not as low or lower than the previous historical low, then it’s not a real deal.

Thus, for anyone who is starting out, the best advice I can really say is that buy only what you need of course, but also don’t jump on something without checking what the going rate has been before (so that you can make an educated purchase).

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[mustakatu]

Sonnox never been cheaper than now. Eventide didn’t even start their proper BF deals on their own site, only some sporadical deals at PB & co ATM, just watch them cook. NI are always waiting for all the possible chances to squeeze the last drop of your wallet, and it’s Nov 14, two weeks prior to the actual date (I recall Cyberchristmas is where they shine). We can talk on these particular big companies’ deals in January, when all is over. Indies fall first, that’s the rule.

[Kirean]

Sonnox was definitely cheaper around August for sure when they had some kind of celebration with ~90% discount. At least when it comes down to individual plugins. For example: Claro $12, Inflator $13 etc.

But you’re right. Late December / early January has often had some good deals not seen on BF/CM and a lot of companies have yet to start their deals. Hence “thus far”.

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[mustakatu]

@kirean, wow I must’ve missed that one, good to know Sonnox can go deeper, guess I was in a full hardware phase then. Actually I’m waiting for Black Friday hardware deals more, and that’s where things are rather underwhelming so far

[lastcall]

On UAD: Everybody has the cheapies, so the discount aren’t really awesome.
If you are kind of a noob (like I was) then discounts are great.
So for me UAD BF sales are kind of meh right now.

 

Softube still too expensive.

[LinkedMusicians]

On lastcall said

On UAD: Everybody has the cheapies, so the discount aren’t really awesome.
If you are kind of a noob (like I was) then discounts are great.
So for me UAD BF sales are kind of meh right now.

 

Softube still too expensive.

I handled the Black Friday deals last year and this year, so I’ve become super familiar with what these developers are putting on sale. UAD has never before had Sound City Studios, Capitol Chambers,  Hitsville EQ Collection, Hitsville Reverb Chambers and some other now in their Mixtape 10 for $99 bundle in one of those inexpensive bundles before last month — first time ever, for sure. That’s a BFD. Now, this one sticks with me because I contemplated buying all of those since they were released but didn’t, The cheapest they ever were before Sept was in the 2 for $79 bundles. They were never included in one of the big cheap bundles until last month and  that was only direct from Universal Audio. This month they released that deal to retailers and as I posted in a deal thread, you can get it for $89.10 with a code through Audio Deluxe making it the lowest price at any time for these plugins. When you break it down, you’ll be getting each plugin for $8.91 — and that includes their premium plugins I just mentioned, not just the cheapies.

Now they also came out with a smaller bundle, of I think 4 plugins for $49, and that doesn’t include the plugins I just mentioned. But I can say that after recently getting those, all of the ones I just mentioned are superb. I love them. UAD has quickly become one of my favorite plugin developers.

• This reply was modified 19 hours, 53 minutes ago by LinkedMusicians.

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[anxiousmofo]

On lastcall said

On UAD: Everybody has the cheapies, so the discount aren’t really awesome.
If you are kind of a noob (like I was) then discounts are great.
So for me UAD BF sales are kind of meh right now.

 

Softube still too expensive.

Agree that Softube doesn’t really seem to be trying or reading the market.  Maybe it will become more exciting around BF/CM proper.

 

A shame because I’m a big fan of Softube.

Tangled roots perplex her ways.

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[LinkedMusicians]

On anxiousmofo said

On lastcall said

On UAD: Everybody has the cheapies, so the discount aren’t really awesome.
If you are kind of a noob (like I was) then discounts are great.
So for me UAD BF sales are kind of meh right now.

 

Softube still too expensive.

Agree that Softube doesn’t really seem to be trying or reading the market.  Maybe it will become more exciting around BF/CM proper.

 

A shame because I’m a big fan of Softube.

Tangled roots perplex her ways.

It’s a tough time for developers to navigate the market. Historically, I’ve told developers to NOT deep discount, that the lowest price you sell a product for becomes it’s new value in consumers’ minds. But we’re seeing major price disruption in the past couple of years. My heart goes out to the small developers — and most of them are small, even the ones we consider big are really small companies with 2 to 50 employees — are trying to figure out how to navigate the new realities in the market. And, I’ll share that I have recently advised developers to re-assess ALL of their pricing and strongly consider adjusting it lower due to the changed marketplace.

I don’t think Softube is out of touch. I think what’s really happening is that we’re seeing a lot of these developers don’t have a strategy besides discounting the hell out of everything. That’s a dangerous strategy and it’s one that’s become very common. It’s worked for Waves because they have other — what I’d consider ethically problematic — techniques to charge customers after the initial sale on their purchase. While Universal Audio’s deals have been amazing, if I were a shareholder, I would be deeply concerned about the business and what they’ve done to their brand image. They’ve reached a much larger market than they did several years ago. Think Peter Gabriel with “So” or Bowie with “Let’s Dance.” I strill love it, but it forever changed those artists’ images with the public. That could very likely mean a lot less money goes into R&D, so the brand no longer remains on the cutting edge. It also could reflect a company desperate to bring in revenue quickly to retain staff or pay bills (it’s no secret that Universal Audio has recently had financial struggles and appears to have laid off some staff).

So, if you’re a company that’s doing well, and let’s say that’s Softube, following the others into the world of sub $50, constantly on sale, plugins is a dangerous move that could lead to bankruptcy. If I were leading one of these companies — I would be more prone to only  put certain plugins into the deep discounted range and keep others in the premium price category.  Your business really has to learn how to sell to a larger audience once you start selling $29 plugins. In the sample developer world. this is why you see developers like Greene / Realitone, Impact Soundworks and more recently, VSL attacking competitors like 8Dio and Musio for deep discounting and creating new product lines like SoundPaint and Musio that sell high quality libraries at significantly lower prices than the market has previously seen for that level of quality.

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[Kirean]

I was waiting for my Softube newsletter 25% voucher to arrive and was contemplating on Model 84 for $39.

Then I realized I already had that with some bundle of theirs that included it and a bunch of others for a total of $39. I only remembered buying Model 82 for ~20 bucks.

Lesson of the day: Don’t press “buy” just yet! You might already own it!

 

Edit: Spitfire gearing up for BF deals according to their newsletter. Nothing up yet, but will be 50% off individual plugins + 20% off voucher for newsletter subscribers. No mention of other details or bundles in the “heads up” email.

• This reply was modified 18 hours, 9 minutes ago by Kirean.

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[LinkedMusicians]

On Kirean said

I was waiting for my Softube newsletter 25% voucher to arrive and was contemplating on Model 84 for $39.

Then I realized I already had that with some bundle of theirs that included it and a bunch of others for a total of $39. I only remembered buying Model 82 for ~20 bucks.

Lesson of the day: Don’t press “buy” just yet! You might already own it!

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ This!!!

The sad reality is that I think most of us — including me — can completely relate to this! I’ve done this a bunch of times and bought stuff twice. That’s why I’ve always appreciated Plugin Boutique having a function that shows me when I bought something from them before that I just put in my cart. Now, if it could just check with Best Service, Audio Deluxe, PluginFox and a few others to see if I bought anything in my cart  there.

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[zoukiman]

On LinkedMusicians said

On Kirean said

I was waiting for my Softube newsletter 25% voucher to arrive and was contemplating on Model 84 for $39.

Then I realized I already had that with some bundle of theirs that included it and a bunch of others for a total of $39. I only remembered buying Model 82 for ~20 bucks.

Lesson of the day: Don’t press “buy” just yet! You might already own it!

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ This!!!

The sad reality is that I think most of us — including me — can completely relate to this! I’ve done this a bunch of times and bought stuff twice. That’s why I’ve always appreciated Plugin Boutique having a function that shows me when I bought something from them before that I just put in my cart. Now, if it could just check with Best Service, Audio Deluxe, PluginFox and a few others to see if I bought anything in my cart  there.

The official LinkedMusicians account

Well… In fact… Softube shows you what you already own… Just you know…

[Kirean]

On LinkedMusicians said

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ The sad reality is that I think most of us — including me — can completely relate to this! I’ve done this a bunch of times and bought stuff twice. That’s why I’ve always appreciated Plugin Boutique having a function that shows me when I bought something from them before that I just put in my cart. Now, if it could just check with Best Service, Audio Deluxe, PluginFox and a few others to see if I bought anything in my cart  there.

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I have to admit (except to my significant other) that I’ve done that. Buying something cheap twice on different occasions and feeling like a total idiot after. Which is why I began tracking what I owned, where, when and how much in a spreadsheet (+ having a wishlist of things to look out for when the price is right). Using the search function in the email helps too.

• This reply was modified 18 hours, 4 minutes ago by Kirean.

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[swijaya]

On LinkedMusicians said

and more recently, VSL attacking competitors like 8Dio and Musio

 

What did they do/write/say?

[pseudopop]

On LinkedMusicians said

[…] the lowest price you sell a product for becomes it’s new value in consumers’ minds.

Sad but true. There are so many plugins I haven’t bought, because ten years ago in a once-in-a-lifetime sale they were sold at a deep discount and I am now physically unable to pay any more for them. That is also why I keep a wishlist with historically lowest prices, to make sure I don’t pay any more than someone else did. I’m a jealous consumer.

On Kirean said

I have to admit (except to my significant other) that I’ve done that. Buying something cheap twice on different occasions and feeling like a total idiot after. Which is why I began tracking what I owned, where, when and how much in a spreadsheet (+ having a wishlist of things to look out for when the price is right). Using the search function in the email helps too.

Hey, we’re the same! That spreadsheet is both a great big help and a source of shame for me. I still search through my emails for any receipts before making a purchase, because sometimes my system isn’t perfect (read: I’m lazy).

Remember to calculate the total money spent for that little extra sting!

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[Kirean]

On pseudopop said

Remember to calculate the total money spent for that little extra sting!

Yeah. No. Never. No way. I’d like to maintain my ability to sleep. I’m already contemplating my life choices enough as it is.

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[LinkedMusicians]

On swijaya said

On LinkedMusicians said

and more recently, VSL attacking competitors like 8Dio and Musio

 

What did they do/write/say?

It’s such a long story. I’ve known Mike Greene, the owner of Realitone who purchased VI-Control several years ago, for two decades. Greene has been obsessed with the developers who have been deep discounting for a long time. In particular, he is obsessed with trying to destroy 8Dio and Cinesamples. Because VI-Control is a very popular site, it brings in a lot of money for sample developers. It’s not as big as KVR or Gearspace, but I would estimate that per user, VI-Control users spend more money on sample libraries than any of the most popular forums. Greene has, even before he bought VI-Control, a history of hanging around with a group of forum bullies, that attack other developers. Greene is pretty predictable, he calls people mentally ill, stupid, he makes defamatory remarks about people. The developer community sees Greene’s purchase of VI-Control as very bad for the industry, because Greene has terrible ethics and leverages the site to defame and attack his competitors.

Because Vi-Control is such a powerful money-making machine for developers (I knew the previous owner who didn’t have Greene’s skill for monetizing the site; developers big and small have complained to me about Greene shaking them down) Greene has created a group of sycophant developers that join Greene in attacking their competitors. Chief among them is Andrew Aversa, owner of Impact Soundworks (IS), whose employees (technically contractors) have long engaged in practices like doing posts as if they’re unbiased third-parties comparing Impact Soundworks libraries to competitors, basically positioning IS as superior and the competitors as inferior.

So, if you’re a regular at VI-Control (and I once was), Greene has often made long posts about his all-out hatred of 8Dio, commonly dropping f-bombs, stating that they’re “leading the race to the bottom,” a phrase he repeats ad nauseam. Greene has privately communicated with me about this and he’s obsessed with 8Dio specifically, who he blames for sample library prices coming down. A couple of years ago, one of Impact Soundworks contracctors, angry that she couldn’t get six figures from 8Dio for some extensive Kontakt scripts she wrote as a fan project for a retired 8Dio sample library, turned her 8Dio fan thread into an attack on the developer. Her, and another Impact Soundworks employee (technically a contractor) without ever once stating they were stating they were IS contractors, turned the thread into a 40 plus page attack on 8Dio filled with all out libel — stories they privately acknowleged to me directly to be false — in order to destroy 8Dio. Chief among them was a completely false narrative that 8Dio attacks competitors. One of the false stories they told was that Mario / Evil Dragon, had more than a decade earlier, done a “review” on KVR about the co-owner of 8Dio’s former sample library company and he was attacked by Troels and threatened with being sued for giving it a minor criticism of their library. He claimed that Troels told him that he would destroy his reputation just because he said that another sample library was superior to Troels library.

Now I and a developer friend who mentored Mario back then to get his start knew that story to be outrageously false. The truth is, Mario was working as a contractor for Sonokinetic at the time, and did a post on KVR pretending to be unconnected to Sonokinetic, comparing their competitor library to Troels library, claiming that Sonokinetic’s library was far superior. It was a blatant example of deceptive shilling. Troels had sent Mario a PM stating that it was unethical for him to do a review on a sample library he did the Kontakt scripting on and made money and royalties on without disclosing that fact and told him that he could be sued for doing that and could be ruining his reputation in the industry. Mario was worried, he called our mutual developer friend who called me. They looked to me for advice on what to do. I told them that I am confident that it would cost too much money for Troels company (Tonehammer) to sue Mario when Mario lived in Europe and Troels’ company was based in the US. However, the developer and I agreed that what Mario did was completely unethical and he needed to apologize to Troels and not engage in those kinds of practices again. Mario never apologized, instead, as a favor to Mike Greene, he fictionalized what happened in this 8Dio attack thread claiming that Troels once attacked him merely for giving an honest review of his sample library. I had contacted Troels to get him to join the VI-Control thread. Troels told the truth in his response in that thread, Mario lied and claimed he didn’t. The developer mutual friend of Mario and I conversed during that thread — he still had notes on the incident that he sent over to me — we both agreed that Mario was lying and we both reached out to Mario to tell the truth and stop lying and bullying Troels. We were both really disappointed in Mario.  But I posted in the thread telling the true story. To my surprise, Mario acknowledged that what I wrote was true and we had a friendly series of posts where I tried to persuade Mario that he needed to apologize to Troels and stop spreading this dishonest version of events. Mike Greene was furious with me and sent me a series of PMs telling me that he just deleted all of my posts in the thread and Mario’s replies, and told me, very firmly, to “stay out of this,” adding that he hates 8Dio.  Greene ended up deleting more than 100 posts from other people in that thread — as many people were upset to see the blatant bullying of a developer and I’m sure that some of them saw my and Mario’s posts before they were deleted.

There were other stories being shared in the thread that were lies too, one of them concerned the former influencer Cory Pellazari, who I had befriended. Greene created a false story about him too — and in that case, I knew that to be false because I knew Cory and later got to know the co-founder of 8Dio who shared all of the PMs, emails, and info with me. In any event, I had personally many PMs with the Mario and Sarah — the latter who led the attack thread on 8Dio. Sarah had eventually acknowledged that 8Dio didn’t do anything wrong, but if she  acknowledged that or made peace with him it would harm her relationships with her boss, Andrew Aversa and Mike Greene, who she eventually came to believe was manipulating her into attacking 8Dio.

Behind the scenes, Mike Greene was trying to persuade me to join with him on the attack on 8Dio. He showered complements on me to try to manipulate me to join him in the attacks. He made a statement to me to the effect of, sure, it may not be ethical or right, but I hate these people and they’re destroying the industry. He called me a great guy with a “heart of gold” clearly thinking by using flattery I would go along with him. Instead I forwarded his attempt to get me to stop sharing the actual stories and challenging him to 8Dio’s CEO, copying Mike. That was how we parted ways.

Greene has gone after numerous competitors and uses very similar tactics, name calling, and even getting a group of sycophant developers to join with him. He went after Cinesamples very strong, but not to the extent that he went after 8Dio. He goes after his competitors using character attacks, spreading rumors that they’re ready to go out of business, etc. But why did Greene do it with 8Dio and Cinesamples stronger than he went after any other competitors? I know, because he and and used to chat. He was trying to make developers afraid to work with them and make sample buyers afraid to buy from them with their new divisions, SoundPaint and Musio.

Both 8Dio, with SoundPaint, and Cinesamples’  with Musio, had new business models that greatly brought down prices for orchestral sample libraries and required them to bring third party sample library developers aboard their new platform. Greene’s strategy has been to create the perception that 8Dio’s and CInesamples’ owners are sleazy, unethical people that no one should buy from or partner with. Greene personally — in an email I forwarded to 8Dio’s CEO, urged me to never do consulting work to 8Dio, literally stating that he hated them and wanted to see them be destroyed (why, because they were making it very difficult for him to make the same profit margins on his sample library business by selling their libraries for such low prices).

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[Kirean]

I think they were asking about VSL’s involvement.

[swijaya]

Thank you.
Yes, that’s my question.

[LinkedMusicians]

On Kirean said

I think they were asking about VSL’s involvement.

Haha. Okay. That’s simple. And, BTW, I end up hearing about all of this stuff from developers I know and occasionally, I’ll go to VI-Control to read what they’ve told me about. In the case of VSL, the developer joined in on Greene’s attacks on Cinesamples. He basically will join in threads where Greene spreads damaging rumors that Cinesamples is ready to go under and people should be afraid to buy their sample libraries because they probably won’t be in business much longer, and disparages their managers as bad people and liars (in reality, he’s projecting). Once you understand what’s going on, you can go back and read their comments in light of their easy to see motives.

The attacks and dialogue are very contrived, an attempt to manipulate sample library buyers. These are competitors of the businesses that they’re disparaging. Underneath the attacks is a desire to see the lower prices that 8Dio and Cinesamples have  led the way on, fail. I can’t recall the name of the owner of VSL and I don’t know him personally, but he has been joining in Greene’s attacks on Cinemesamples and so have some other developers beyond Andrew Aversa (Impact Soundworks). It’s really as simple as a deliberate effort to try to damage the developers who are leading the way in selling more affordable orchestral sample libraries. It’s motivated by these developers’ fears that their ability to command high margins for their libraries is being threatened and that they can manipulate sample buyers by maligning their competitors and creating rumors that cause buyers to be afraid to buy from them and other developers to be afraid to come aboard their platforms. It has certainly slowed the progress of the developers leading the charge. Being super candid, I think Greene’s attacks on Cinesamples could put them out of business. I know that Greene has caused easily caused both 8Dio and Cinesamples significant financial harm through his efforts.

I think if the average non-pro orchestral sample library buyer understood how this has impacted this market, many would be disgusted. The fact is, we — me included — spend A LOT of money on this stuff. And when business people have the opportunity to make a lot of money, very often you see the worst of many people. And to be clear, I was inspired to create a community after my experiences with Mike Greene, but mostly because of these terrible practices, the toxicity of not just VI-Control, but that’s become commonplace in social media. I made my career from managing digital marketing and writing and speaking about it, but I have kids, early on, I contemplated the ministry instead of music or marketing. I’m ethics driven and I care greatly about how people treat one another. So the driving force for me was to create a place without the toxicity, where very simply,  kindness was the norm, not bad behavior. Now, I realize that we probably can’t scale this to any great degree and ensure that things stay friendly. But I would prefer having a smaller community that is kind than a large one that isn’t kind.

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[mustakatu]

On pseudopop said

On Kirean said

I have to admit (except to my significant other) that I’ve done that. Buying something cheap twice on different occasions and feeling like a total idiot after. Which is why I began tracking what I owned, where, when and how much in a spreadsheet (+ having a wishlist of things to look out for when the price is right). Using the search function in the email helps too.

Hey, we’re the same! That spreadsheet is both a great big help and a source of shame for me. I still search through my emails for any receipts before making a purchase, because sometimes my system isn’t perfect (read: I’m lazy).

Remember to calculate the total money spent for that little extra sting!

That makes three of us. When you add it all up for the first time and see the total sum, while you don’t even use the majority of them… that hits you so hard it’s like a vaccination against impulsive purchases in the future. And yes, having a wishlist with the known all-time low prices helps too. When I realised how effective this whole thing is, I started recording hardware purchases as well, so I have no problem with calculating what my resell numbers should be. Team Spreadsheet

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[LinkedMusicians]

I would never create a spreadsheet of all of my purchases; that would be far too depressing! Although, on a related note, how about a spreadsheet with a correlation between plugins purchased and finished songs / compositions produced (for the hobbyists, like myself, in the group). That would be depressing!

I don’t know about anyone else here, but the reason I’ve finished as many covers as I have as I will be working on songs I wrote decades ago and get stuck trying to remember something and can’t recall it, so I google chords and lyrics for a cover, press record and then do first takes on everything — because my attitude is, “It’s just a quick, jam cover, I don’t want to spend too much time doing it.” And then, when I’m working on it, it’s a combination of, “Wow, I really can’t play anymore.” and sometimes, “Wow, I’m not as terrible as I expected.” Then I listen to it the next day and I’m like, “Well, these 4 bars are really good. Shame about the rest of it!”

And that is the current state of my musical endeavors and my second overshare of the day!

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